34:28 Miles: Alright, Lena, we've covered so much ground about the philosophy and potential of testing. But I know our listeners are probably wondering, "This all sounds great, but how do I actually start applying these ideas in my own work?" Let's get practical.
34:43 Lena: Yes! I've been thinking the same thing. Like, whether someone is working on software, managing a business process, or even just trying to improve their personal projects, what are the concrete steps they can take to build better testing practices?
12:10 Miles: Great question. I think the first step is actually a mindset shift. Start asking "How will I know if this works?" for everything you're planning to do. Don't wait until something is finished to think about verification—build it into your planning process from the beginning.
35:13 Lena: That's such a simple but powerful question. And it probably forces you to be more specific about what "success" actually looks like, right? Like, instead of vague goals, you have to define measurable outcomes.
3:53 Miles: Exactly. And once you start thinking that way, you can begin building what I call "feedback loops" into your work. These are mechanisms that give you quick, reliable information about whether you're on the right track.
35:36 Lena: Can you give some examples of what those feedback loops might look like in different contexts?
35:40 Miles: Sure! If you're writing code, it might be setting up automated tests that run every time you make a change. If you're launching a marketing campaign, it might be starting with a small test audience before rolling out broadly. If you're redesigning a business process, it might be piloting the new process with one team before implementing it company-wide.
35:59 Lena: I love that these principles apply so broadly. And it sounds like the key is starting small and getting feedback quickly rather than building everything and hoping it works.
7:29 Miles: Absolutely. There's this concept in software called "fail fast," but I prefer to think of it as "learn fast." The goal is to get information about what works and what doesn't as quickly and cheaply as possible.
36:20 Lena: That makes sense. So if someone is just getting started with better testing practices, what would you recommend as their first concrete step?
36:27 Miles: I'd say pick one thing you're working on—just one—and ask yourself three questions: What am I trying to accomplish? How will I know if I've succeeded? And what's the smallest experiment I can run to test my assumptions?
36:40 Lena: Those are great questions. And I imagine once you get comfortable with that process on small things, you can start applying it to bigger and more complex projects.
3:53 Miles: Exactly. And here's something important—don't try to test everything perfectly right away. It's better to have simple, reliable tests for the most important things than to have complex, fragile tests for everything.
37:01 Lena: So prioritize based on risk and impact. Test the things that matter most or could cause the biggest problems if they go wrong.
9:35 Miles: Right. And build your testing practices gradually. Start with the basics, get comfortable with those, then add more sophisticated approaches over time. It's like learning any skill—you want to master the fundamentals before moving on to advanced techniques.
8:38 Lena: This is making me think about something we discussed earlier—the importance of making testing feel collaborative rather than adversarial. How do you create that kind of culture, especially if you're not in a leadership position?
37:33 Miles: That's such an important question. I think it starts with framing testing as a tool for improvement rather than judgment. When you find problems through testing, celebrate that as valuable information rather than treating it as failure.
37:46 Lena: And probably model the behavior you want to see. Like, if you're open about problems you find in your own work and focused on learning from them, that makes it safer for others to do the same.
7:29 Miles: Absolutely. And share your successes too. When testing helps you catch a problem early or gives you confidence to make a bold change, talk about that. Help people see the positive impact of good testing practices.
38:08 Lena: For people who are working in organizations that don't currently have strong testing cultures, how do you recommend they start making changes?
38:14 Miles: Start small and prove value. Pick a project where you can demonstrate the benefits of good testing practices, even if it's just for your own work. Once people see the results—fewer bugs, faster development, more reliable outcomes—they'll be more interested in adopting similar approaches.
38:31 Lena: So lead by example and let the results speak for themselves rather than trying to convince people through arguments.
3:53 Miles: Exactly. And be patient. Cultural change takes time, but it's incredibly powerful once it takes hold. Focus on building allies and creating positive examples rather than trying to change everything at once.
38:49 Lena: What about tools and resources? Are there specific things you'd recommend for people who want to start building better testing practices?
38:55 Miles: The tools matter less than the principles, honestly. You can start with simple approaches—even just writing down what you expect to happen before you do something, then checking whether it actually happened. But if people want specific recommendations, there are great testing frameworks for almost every programming language and lots of good books about testing principles.
39:13 Lena: And I imagine the key is to start with whatever tools you already have rather than waiting for the perfect setup.
7:29 Miles: Absolutely. Perfect is the enemy of good when it comes to testing. It's better to have simple, consistent practices than to spend months planning the ideal testing infrastructure.
39:28 Lena: So to summarize for our listeners: start with mindset, focus on learning fast, prioritize the most important risks, build gradually, and prove value through results rather than arguments.
39:38 Miles: That's a perfect summary, Lena. And remember—testing isn't about being perfect. It's about being intentional, getting good feedback, and continuously improving. The goal is progress, not perfection.