22:29 Lena: Miles, I think one of the most compelling aspects of Kennedy's presidency is how we can actually see him evolving on civil rights in real time. He didn't start as a civil rights champion, but by 1963, he was giving some of the most powerful speeches on racial justice in presidential history.
22:47 Miles: That's such an important point, Lena. Kennedy's journey on civil rights really shows how events and moral pressure can transform a leader's perspective. Initially, he was quite cautious—as we mentioned, Robert Kennedy said the administration's early priority was to "keep the president out of this civil rights mess."
23:05 Lena: But the civil rights movement wasn't going to let him stay out of it, was it?
6:57 Miles: Not at all. The Freedom Riders in May 1961 really forced Kennedy's hand. The Congress of Racial Equality, led by James Farmer, organized these integrated bus rides to test a Supreme Court ruling that declared segregation on interstate transportation illegal.
23:24 Lena: And they faced violent resistance?
23:27 Miles: Repeatedly. The Riders were met with mob violence, including attacks by federal and state law enforcement officers. Kennedy assigned federal marshals to protect the Riders rather than using federal troops or FBI agents, because he feared sending federal troops would stir up what he called "hated memories of Reconstruction" among conservative Southern whites.
23:45 Lena: So he was still trying to find a middle ground at that point?
5:47 Miles: Exactly. But these events kept escalating. In September 1962, when James Meredith tried to enroll at the all-white University of Mississippi, Kennedy sent 400 federal marshals. The Ole Miss riot that followed left two dead and dozens injured, forcing Kennedy to send in 3,000 troops.
11:44 Lena: That must have been a turning point for him personally.
11:46 Miles: It really was. Kennedy later regretted not sending troops earlier, and he began to doubt whether the "evils of Reconstruction" he had been taught were actually true. This set up his much more forceful response in 1963.
24:20 Lena: Which culminated in that famous confrontation with George Wallace in Alabama?
24:24 Miles: Yes, on June 11, 1963. When Alabama Governor George Wallace blocked the doorway to the University of Alabama to stop two Black students—Vivian Malone and James Hood—from attending, Kennedy federalized the Alabama National Guard and sent Deputy Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach to confront Wallace.
24:41 Lena: And that evening, Kennedy gave what many consider his greatest speech on civil rights?
24:46 Miles: His "Report to the American People on Civil Rights" speech, broadcast on national television and radio. Kennedy said: "We are confronted primarily with a moral issue. It is as old as the scriptures and is as clear as the American Constitution. The heart of the question is whether all Americans are to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities."
25:05 Lena: That's such a different tone from his earlier, more cautious approach.
25:09 Miles: Completely different. He continued: "If an American, because his skin is dark, cannot eat lunch in a restaurant open to the public, if he cannot send his children to the best public school available, if he cannot vote for the public officials who will represent him, if, in short, he cannot enjoy the full and free life which all of us want, then who among us would be content to have the color of his skin changed and stand in his place?"
25:32 Lena: That's powerful rhetoric. How did it translate into policy?
25:35 Miles: That same evening, Kennedy announced his intention to send comprehensive civil rights legislation to Congress. His proposals became the foundation for what would eventually become the Civil Rights Act of 1964. He was calling for equal access to public schools and other facilities, and greater protection of voting rights.
25:51 Lena: But there was immediate political cost, wasn't there?
14:31 Miles: Yes. The day after his TV speech, House Majority Leader Carl Albert called to tell Kennedy that his two-year signature effort to combat poverty in Appalachia had been defeated, primarily by votes from Southern Democrats and Republicans who were angry about the civil rights speech.
26:07 Lena: How did Kennedy respond to that setback?
26:09 Miles: When Arthur Schlesinger Jr. complimented Kennedy on his remarks, Kennedy bitterly replied, "Yes, and look at what happened to area development the very next day in the House." But then he added, "But of course, I had to give that speech, and I'm glad that I did."
26:22 Lena: That suggests he understood there was a moral imperative that transcended political calculation.
5:47 Miles: Exactly. And this evolution continued through the March on Washington. Initially, Kennedy opposed the march, fearing it would have a negative effect on civil rights bills pending in Congress. But when it became clear the march would happen anyway, the Department of Justice coordinated the federal government's involvement.
26:41 Lena: How involved was the administration in the march itself?
26:44 Miles: Very involved. Several hundred thousand dollars were channeled to the six sponsors of the march. To ensure a peaceful demonstration, the organizers and Kennedy personally edited speeches that were inflammatory and collaborated on all aspects of times and venues. Thousands of troops were placed on standby.
26:58 Lena: And Kennedy watched King's "I Have a Dream" speech?
27:01 Miles: He did, on TV, and was very impressed. After the march, Kennedy met with the march leaders at the White House for photos. He felt the march was a victory for him as well and bolstered the chances for his civil rights bill.
27:11 Lena: But then came more violence that tested his resolve.
27:14 Miles: Yes, three weeks later, on September 15, a bomb exploded at the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham. By the end of the day, four Black children had died in the explosion, and two others were shot to death in the aftermath.
27:25 Lena: How did Kennedy respond to that tragedy?
27:27 Miles: The violence led to drastic amendments to the civil rights legislation that critically endangered its prospects for passage. Kennedy called congressional leaders to the White House, and by the following day, the original bill had enough votes to get out of the House committee.
27:38 Lena: So Kennedy had learned to use presidential power more effectively to advance civil rights?
3:59 Miles: Absolutely. By 1963, Kennedy understood that presidential leadership on civil rights required not just moral clarity, but also strategic use of federal power and political capital. He was willing to pay the political price for doing what he believed was right.
27:56 Lena: And even though he didn't live to see the Civil Rights Act passed, his evolution on the issue was crucial to its eventual success?
28:02 Miles: Definitely. On July 2, 1964, President Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act into law—the guarantees Kennedy had proposed in his June 1963 speech became federal law. Kennedy's moral leadership and willingness to evolve had laid the groundwork for that historic achievement.